Possible ban wave

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CoFree
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Possible ban wave

Post by CoFree »

Possible ban wave
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There is a lot of talk going around about a new ban wave that is coming.
I think there is a new update that maybe out from xbox live that you
SHOULD NOT take till we know more.



C4EVA analyzed the Xbox LIVE checks on FIFA09 today after the news of the possible activation of AP2.5. Right now there are no new checks, but AP25 will be monitored for any activity in the future!
A bit earlier in #FW/EFnet:
<+c4eva> AP25 threat is real, but only MS knows if it will ever be enabled, since it has been in drive fw since hitachi!
<+c4eva> action against ap25 will be taken when it is used, until then we can only monitor!
<+c4eva> ap25 involves host supplied LBA checks, encrypted with AES, LBA's are submitted by the host (360)!
<+c4eva> not all drives support it, and they will have to make sure all drives that do support give back reliable results! not as easy as it sounds!
<rift> c4eva so just to make sure i got this correct, you said the 360 makes the AES'd lba request correct? not the drive?
<+c4eva> rift: transmitted to drive to do the checks!
<+c4eva> fifa is fine
[/quote]
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dalecheesy
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by dalecheesy »

I noticed the other day that when FIFA'09 for Xbox360 is patched with the latest update, the flags that specify what media the game is allowed to run from have changed. Originally it was allowed to boot from a standard original Xbox360 disc, however now it is only allowed to boot from a new media type which is basically an updated version of the original Xbox360 disc type.

Those who have ever looked into the depths of the Xbox360 disc authentication scheme know that a "new" type of disc authentication has been in the works since the Xbox360 was released. It is known as the AntiPiracy v2.5 checks, or AP2.5. Is this FIFA'09 patch a sign that AP2.5 is finally going to see the light of day? If so then the ban hammer is going to come down hard. Don't say I didn't warn you :)

The original Xbox360 game disc was reffered to as DVD-X(info)GD2, which I presume stands for Xbox Game Disc version 2 (with version 1 being the discs used on Xbox1). This new Xbox360 game disc just seems to be reffered to as an "updated DVD-XGD2″ , however to avoid confusion I will call this new disc type "DVD-XGD2.5″. Also since I am a lazy typer I will remove the "DVD-" prefix for the following text.

Based on what I remember from when I looked into the disc authentication, I can see three possibilities. In order of likeliness they are:

1) Possibly the XGD2.5 disc is actually physically the same as the XGD2 disc but has support for extra unknown challenge/response checks.

XGD2 discs are authenticated by a series of challenge response pairs. The Xbox360 sends challenges to the dvd-drive and then the drive sends back responses to these challenges based on information on the disc in the dvd drive. If the Xbox360 deems the responses to be correct, the disc is authenticated.

Current Xbox360 dvd-drive hacks work since the challenge/response pairs are stored in the security sector on the disc, meaning that all possible challenge/responses are known in advance. The best way for MS to solve this problem is to use challenge/response pairs that are not known in advance to the dvd-drive. So if a hacked dvd-drive receives an unknown challenge it will not have the correct repsonse to send back, therefore the authentication will fail and the copied game will not boot.

MS could do these extra checks when you connect to Xbox Live, and could even save unknown challenge/response pairs to a file on the flash of your Xbox360 in order to do the checks offline. They could also save challenge/responses to your flash when you update your console via Live or an update on a game disc.

2) Maybe the authentication of XGD2.5 is a superset of the XGD2 authentication. Therefore the FIFA'09 game could be pressed on the new XGD2.5 discs and still pass the XGD2 authentication checks. Then when MS is ready to initiate AP2.5 checks they could patch the game to only boot if it's disc passes the XGD2.5 authentication.

3) Or else I may just be wrong and there is no new disc type or it is totally seperate to AP2.5 :)
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technoe
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by technoe »

This will definitely be interesting to say the least. I've already let all of my customers know to not update for the time being. Did anyone else read some of the responses to that guys blog? WOW!! People get crazy sometimes LOL.
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by iamwatt »

yo techno! i was just reading them joints. . . hilarious! lmao @ rebel who talked a good game but at the same time calls himself rebel. . . :? lol!
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by Backslash »

<+c4eva> FIFA 09 xblive log in a few hours, more then!
Man this will be interesting :(
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strykr535
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by strykr535 »

so basicly if we dont update we will be fine?? but dont we have to accept the upgrade to even be able to play???
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by CoFree »

strykr535 wrote:o basicly if we dont update we will be fine??
at this point know one knows for sure man.
strykr535 wrote:but dont we have to accept the upgrade to even be able to play???
yes
to play on live you would
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HaGGardSmurf
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by HaGGardSmurf »

After reading that blog post I am thoroughly confused. How would it be possible for the dvd drive to know the answers to the challenges without having some way to get access to a list of answers (ie: security sector)
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by Backslash »

the drive doesn't know the answers it sends what the disc reads to live or whatever then it is compared with the game MS has on database.

i.e.

the disc has a challenge response on it to whatever the XBL queries to it. XBL will send a challenge to the "disc" and the drive will read off the response and send it back to MS.
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by Backslash »

however with the ixtreme FW, it sends "good" repsonses back no matter what "supposedly" no more bad kreon they say..
In that case then if the patch is what it is then the drive will send back what it thinks is a good response but for the updates sake its way off.
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by HaGGardSmurf »

I understand the drive gets its 'responses' from the disk but, I thought this was already what was happening? (MS asking a question, the disk responding, and the data sent to M$, then your banned if M$ deem's the response to be bad)

As long as your game is dumped with a kreon shouldn't it be as close to a 1 to 1 copy as you can get, and it will send the same responses as a real game? Therefore M$ will not ban you?
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by Backslash »

however with the ixtreme FW, it sends "good" repsonses back no matter what "supposedly" no more bad kreon they say..
In that case then if the patch is what it is then the drive will send back what it thinks is a good response but for the updates sake its way off.
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by sadalius »

Backslash is 100% on track with this. On a backup, the responses are coming from ixtreme, not the disk. But this would depend on what the query was. If there are new sets of queries, then it would try to get the responses from the disk and if it's a new disk type, kreon may not be ready for it. Depending on how it plays out, an ixtreme update maybe all thats needed, then again, it could take a new ixtreme, a new kreon and new Xbox Backup Creator or Schtroms entirely.
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by CoFree »

just a bump

read first post
"FIGHTING TYRANNY in a TECHNOLOGICAL NOTTINGHAM"
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Re: Possible ban wave

Post by HaGGardSmurf »

See I thought it was the disk that supplied the info... Thats why I wasnt sure why this was a big deal...
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